Positive Institutions: positive organizations
Three interviews with practitioners
Table of Contents
1. Jacky van de Goor, Legende Advies ................................................................ 2
Part 2 ....................................................................................................................... 11
2. Amke de Vries, Leeuwendaal Consultancy................................................... 20
3. Philippe de Bock, Kennedy Fitch ................................................................. 28
Part 2 ....................................................................................................................... 36
1
, 1. Jacky van de Goor, Legende Advies
[Speaker 2]
Question: Could you perhaps start by telling us something about your career and
how you got in touch with positive psychology?
[Speaker 1]
Well, my career. Well, actually, I was educated as an industrial design engineer, so I have
quite a di@erent background. I did that because, actually, I really liked the creative side of
that study.
And then I went to work at KPN, which is a Dutch telecom company where I had my first
job. And there, actually, I started working in teams, in quite some prestigious teams. And
I really wondered, was really amazed, actually, what happens between people when they
work together in this type of project.
So, like, there's a lot of emotions, people start lying, and what's going on? So, it was like
this Alice in Wonderland type of feeling. And so that really interested me.
It really got me. And, well, I guess I actually started, you know, reflecting on that more and
more. And then decided that, you know, I want to focus on what happens between
people.
And I want to focus on things like group dynamics. So, then I changed jobs, and I went to
work at Schouten & Meemsen, which is quite a big Dutch training and coaching company.
I went to work there at their department, which is on organizational development and
leadership.
I worked there for seven years. And then I focused on 1) culture, which we'll get to talking
about in this interview, because it's a major thing in my approach, if you talk about
positive psychology. But while working there, actually, I noticed that their culture
bothered me, because it was really only focused on performance.
And I really liked, you know, I have this creative side to me, which I didn't feel I had a
chance to develop. So, in 2006, I quit, and I started my own business, which I never
thought I would dare do that. Because I'm not really an entrepreneur, and I stress out
easily.
So, I'm not like a lighthearted person. But I felt that, you know, my longing for more
freedom and more space to really focus on what I want to do was bigger than my fear. So,
this happened 15 years ago, and ever since, it's been an amazing trip.
2
,So, this is what I do. So, I have my own company. I focus on leadership development, on
cultural development, specifically value driven.
So, that's where you get the connection to positive psychology. And actually, my first
connection to positive psychology was a long time ago. I think maybe in 2000.
It was when I was still working at Schaals & Nes. So, that was around, I think, 2006. Or
maybe 2005. When there was a conference. I don't even know the name of the
conference. But Martin Seligman was a speaker there. So, actually, maybe. Or the ECPP.
Where was it? It was organized by Schaals & Nes itself. Ah, right. So, they organized it.
They invited Martin Seligman. He did a keynote. I gave a workshop.
I developed a game, which is called the Culture Game. Which is a tool for people in
organizations and teams to, in a playful way, discuss and gain insight about their culture
and how to develop it. So, I actually met Martin Seligman there. And I was really moved
by his, intrigued by his teachings. Specifically, his distinction. At that time, I was
developing more now. But on pleasure, engagement, and meaning. So, I really
resonated on the meaning level. And actually, the funny thing is, I got to know him there.
And actually, he was a very grumpy old man. So, that's why I really like that. You know,
we're talking about positive psychology. But he was not an example of positivity himself.
I don't know if you ever met him.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
I did. Do you recognize this? I do.
[Speaker 2]
I even, he has written an article where he, it's one of his seminal articles. Where he writes
about, okay, why positive psychology? And he also describes himself as a grumpy old
man.
And he describes a conversation that he has with his daughter about it. And that his
daughter, at one day, tells him, okay, I'm going to stop whining. And then, when she told
him that, he, well, somehow, I think he decided to become less grumpy. But I'm not sure
whether he completely managed.
Positive psychology
[Speaker 1]
Maybe we should invite him now. Yeah. So, that was my introduction. And I really got into
his, you know, the distinction between pleasure, engagement, and meaningful. 2)
Meaning was, to me, a very insightful distinction. Specifically because in
3
, organizations, I noticed that when, especially in big organizations, 3) people tend to lose
contact or connection to the meaning of their work.
Because, you know, the work they do, there's like, it's only like a small part of a radar in a
big machine. And they're not connected to the outcome anymore. And then, 3.1) they
seem to develop like a pleasure focus.
So, if you can't have that, then let's have pleasure. And let's, you know, make a lot of fun.
Or hang our whole room full of holiday pictures. Because, you know, that's the only thing
we can do. So, there was like this, you know, 3.2) overly attention to pleasure seems to
be connected to a loss of meaning.
[Speaker 1]
And that's actually why I'm 4) sometimes a little bit skeptical about positive
psychology interventions that I see being done in companies. Because they seem to
focus on this happiness, you know, positive emotions thing. So, let's do yoga or reduce
stress.
But actually, it's only or often aimed at symptom reduction. Because stress is a
symptom. But it doesn't reach the core of the problem.
And often, at least what I see is that 5) the core of the problem is related to a loss of
meaning in the work itself.
6) I don't like positive psychology interventions that don't address the job or don't
address the connection to co-workers. And of course, it's, you know, a good joke or
some, you know, it's good to do some relaxation.
But it's not the core of what meaningful work is all about.
Meaningfulness
[Speaker 2]
Question: And can you say a bit more about, okay, what can you as an advisor do to
increase this feeling of meaningfulness?
[Speaker 1]
Well, actually, sometimes I'm quite shocked. 7) Since it's so central to me in my own
life, in my own work. You know, now I have my own company. So, you know, there's only
me. And I did a PhD on this thing. So, to me, 8) it's like this main thing in life.
And it's, of course, you know, 9) meaning is a basic need. But I'm 10) actually often
shocked to see how far out that is in companies. If you look at that, you know, there's a
lot of focus on performance, on key performance indicators, on e@iciency, on being lean.
4
Three interviews with practitioners
Table of Contents
1. Jacky van de Goor, Legende Advies ................................................................ 2
Part 2 ....................................................................................................................... 11
2. Amke de Vries, Leeuwendaal Consultancy................................................... 20
3. Philippe de Bock, Kennedy Fitch ................................................................. 28
Part 2 ....................................................................................................................... 36
1
, 1. Jacky van de Goor, Legende Advies
[Speaker 2]
Question: Could you perhaps start by telling us something about your career and
how you got in touch with positive psychology?
[Speaker 1]
Well, my career. Well, actually, I was educated as an industrial design engineer, so I have
quite a di@erent background. I did that because, actually, I really liked the creative side of
that study.
And then I went to work at KPN, which is a Dutch telecom company where I had my first
job. And there, actually, I started working in teams, in quite some prestigious teams. And
I really wondered, was really amazed, actually, what happens between people when they
work together in this type of project.
So, like, there's a lot of emotions, people start lying, and what's going on? So, it was like
this Alice in Wonderland type of feeling. And so that really interested me.
It really got me. And, well, I guess I actually started, you know, reflecting on that more and
more. And then decided that, you know, I want to focus on what happens between
people.
And I want to focus on things like group dynamics. So, then I changed jobs, and I went to
work at Schouten & Meemsen, which is quite a big Dutch training and coaching company.
I went to work there at their department, which is on organizational development and
leadership.
I worked there for seven years. And then I focused on 1) culture, which we'll get to talking
about in this interview, because it's a major thing in my approach, if you talk about
positive psychology. But while working there, actually, I noticed that their culture
bothered me, because it was really only focused on performance.
And I really liked, you know, I have this creative side to me, which I didn't feel I had a
chance to develop. So, in 2006, I quit, and I started my own business, which I never
thought I would dare do that. Because I'm not really an entrepreneur, and I stress out
easily.
So, I'm not like a lighthearted person. But I felt that, you know, my longing for more
freedom and more space to really focus on what I want to do was bigger than my fear. So,
this happened 15 years ago, and ever since, it's been an amazing trip.
2
,So, this is what I do. So, I have my own company. I focus on leadership development, on
cultural development, specifically value driven.
So, that's where you get the connection to positive psychology. And actually, my first
connection to positive psychology was a long time ago. I think maybe in 2000.
It was when I was still working at Schaals & Nes. So, that was around, I think, 2006. Or
maybe 2005. When there was a conference. I don't even know the name of the
conference. But Martin Seligman was a speaker there. So, actually, maybe. Or the ECPP.
Where was it? It was organized by Schaals & Nes itself. Ah, right. So, they organized it.
They invited Martin Seligman. He did a keynote. I gave a workshop.
I developed a game, which is called the Culture Game. Which is a tool for people in
organizations and teams to, in a playful way, discuss and gain insight about their culture
and how to develop it. So, I actually met Martin Seligman there. And I was really moved
by his, intrigued by his teachings. Specifically, his distinction. At that time, I was
developing more now. But on pleasure, engagement, and meaning. So, I really
resonated on the meaning level. And actually, the funny thing is, I got to know him there.
And actually, he was a very grumpy old man. So, that's why I really like that. You know,
we're talking about positive psychology. But he was not an example of positivity himself.
I don't know if you ever met him.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
I did. Do you recognize this? I do.
[Speaker 2]
I even, he has written an article where he, it's one of his seminal articles. Where he writes
about, okay, why positive psychology? And he also describes himself as a grumpy old
man.
And he describes a conversation that he has with his daughter about it. And that his
daughter, at one day, tells him, okay, I'm going to stop whining. And then, when she told
him that, he, well, somehow, I think he decided to become less grumpy. But I'm not sure
whether he completely managed.
Positive psychology
[Speaker 1]
Maybe we should invite him now. Yeah. So, that was my introduction. And I really got into
his, you know, the distinction between pleasure, engagement, and meaningful. 2)
Meaning was, to me, a very insightful distinction. Specifically because in
3
, organizations, I noticed that when, especially in big organizations, 3) people tend to lose
contact or connection to the meaning of their work.
Because, you know, the work they do, there's like, it's only like a small part of a radar in a
big machine. And they're not connected to the outcome anymore. And then, 3.1) they
seem to develop like a pleasure focus.
So, if you can't have that, then let's have pleasure. And let's, you know, make a lot of fun.
Or hang our whole room full of holiday pictures. Because, you know, that's the only thing
we can do. So, there was like this, you know, 3.2) overly attention to pleasure seems to
be connected to a loss of meaning.
[Speaker 1]
And that's actually why I'm 4) sometimes a little bit skeptical about positive
psychology interventions that I see being done in companies. Because they seem to
focus on this happiness, you know, positive emotions thing. So, let's do yoga or reduce
stress.
But actually, it's only or often aimed at symptom reduction. Because stress is a
symptom. But it doesn't reach the core of the problem.
And often, at least what I see is that 5) the core of the problem is related to a loss of
meaning in the work itself.
6) I don't like positive psychology interventions that don't address the job or don't
address the connection to co-workers. And of course, it's, you know, a good joke or
some, you know, it's good to do some relaxation.
But it's not the core of what meaningful work is all about.
Meaningfulness
[Speaker 2]
Question: And can you say a bit more about, okay, what can you as an advisor do to
increase this feeling of meaningfulness?
[Speaker 1]
Well, actually, sometimes I'm quite shocked. 7) Since it's so central to me in my own
life, in my own work. You know, now I have my own company. So, you know, there's only
me. And I did a PhD on this thing. So, to me, 8) it's like this main thing in life.
And it's, of course, you know, 9) meaning is a basic need. But I'm 10) actually often
shocked to see how far out that is in companies. If you look at that, you know, there's a
lot of focus on performance, on key performance indicators, on e@iciency, on being lean.
4
